can someone answer please MAP DIFFICULTY

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h8in
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can someone answer please MAP DIFFICULTY

Post by h8in » December 5th, 2012, 4:59 pm

can someone categorize the maps according to their difficulty ?
or at least mention some good maps for
beginners
medium
advanced
5 each would be great.
thanx

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Re: can someone answer please

Post by h8in » December 5th, 2012, 7:15 pm

can i take that as a YES?

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Re: can someone answer please

Post by Drofder2004 » December 5th, 2012, 10:23 pm

We shall see. However difficulty is subjective, what I find hard, you may find easy.

I would assume it would be down to public opinion and averaged.
I assume there will be a small private team discussion first.
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Re: can someone answer please

Post by h8in » December 29th, 2012, 9:22 pm

hmmmmmmmm it doesn't look like this idea is gonna see the sun light soon . anyway thanx for the replies.

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Re: can someone answer please

Post by fre4kZ » December 29th, 2012, 10:26 pm

I wrote a little list, probably this is like the 1st categorisation of the maps, i tried to be as objective as i could.
Maps cant be categorised in only 3 difficulty level, so i added more.


Newbie:
  • All Deathrun Maps
Beginner:
  • mp_easy_jump
  • mp_bouncer_training
  • mp_crazy_jump
  • mp_peds_propel
  • mp_codjumper_training
Lower-Intermediate:
  • mp_badboys (hard)
  • mp_vectra
  • mp_forgotten
  • mp_lawless_v2
  • mp_digital
Intermediate:
  • mp_sonic
  • mp_ib_glass_v3
  • mp_pgb_jump
  • mp_wireframe_r4 (250/333)
  • mp_nevada
Upper-Intermediate:
  • mp_average
  • mp_4gf_jump (hard)
  • mp_trial_2_p (advanced)
  • mp_tunnel
  • mp_islands
Lower-Advanced:
  • mp_insane (hard)
  • mp_destroyed
  • mp_vertigo (hard)
  • mp_fussaids_v1 (hard)
  • mp_eb_bouncer_1 (hard)
Upper-Advanced:
  • mp_mystic (hard)
  • mp_oerba
  • mp_dark (hard)
  • mp_to_the_moon (advanced)
  • mp_descent (hard)
Expert:
  • mp_dark_v3 (hard)
  • mp_nightmare (hard)
  • mp_colour (red)
  • mp_monster


This is my personal opinion, my objective view of the maps.


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Last edited by Drofder2004 on December 29th, 2012, 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Clarity

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Re: can someone answer please

Post by Sonic » December 29th, 2012, 10:46 pm

Seems fairly accurate to me, nice post.

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Re: can someone answer please

Post by Drofder2004 » December 29th, 2012, 11:16 pm

I edited your post to add a little more style for clarity and change of a few titles for understanding.

If we are going to add a system, then we really need to narrow down the levels.
I propose a '5 star' system. this allows for 6 levels (0,1,2,3,4,5) 0 being 'impossible to fail' and 5 being as hard as it gets.

In the above list we can drop the deathrun stuff, its deathrun, not CoDJumper.
I would also propose merging the two advanced groups. This would now be six groups.

However an issue arises that a map cannot be judged by a single route, this would require double database entries and we could no longer tie them into the ratings. I again propose all maps be judged on their hardest or most complete route. So if a hard route is only 3 jumps long, it does not count.
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Re: can someone answer please

Post by fre4kZ » December 29th, 2012, 11:27 pm

Drofder2004 wrote:I edited your post to add a little more style for clarity and change of a few titles for understanding.

If we are going to add a system, then we really need to narrow down the levels.
I propose a '5 star' system. this allows for 6 levels (0,1,2,3,4,5) 0 being 'impossible to fail' and 5 being as hard as it gets.

In the above list we can drop the deathrun stuff, its deathrun, not CoDJumper.
I would also propose merging the two advanced groups. This would now be six groups.

However an issue arises that a map cannot be judged by a single route, this would require double database entries and we could no longer tie them into the ratings. I again propose all maps be judged on their hardest or most complete route. So if a hard route is only 3 jumps long, it does not count.
Thank you, its much better like this.

I agree about the deathrun thing, i couldnt make up a difficulty name for it, and deathrun maps are kinda belong to that difficulty.

I disagree about merging the 2 advanced groups, cause the Upper - Advanced group contains several maps, which have bounces , what many jumpers, who can complete the Lower - Advanced group's maps , can't do. In my opinion, theres a big skill difference between these 2 groups. The maps might not be 100% proper, but i think there is a difference ,like between Upper - Advanced and Expert.

About the star system: Well, 5 is a cool number, cause the "fun"-rating of the map is already ranked with that, so keeping that number of difficulties is a good idea, so i recommend merging the "newbie" and the "beginner" group together, cause a newbie guy can learn into beginner in a very short time, so not so big difference.

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Re: can someone answer please

Post by Drofder2004 » December 29th, 2012, 11:38 pm

You currently have 8 groups, 2 groups must be removed.
The "Newbie" group is going to be dropped, because we do not stock Deathrun maps.
Another set of groups must be merged.

---

New idea:
"Thermometer" style.
Maps can be ranked out of 10 (consider each '1' as a half-star).
We can use the decimal value of the rating to form a colour.
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Re: can someone answer please

Post by [SoE]_Zaitsev » December 29th, 2012, 11:44 pm

Was hoping you or Vartazian would add that. Thanks a lot man :)
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Re: can someone answer please

Post by fre4kZ » December 29th, 2012, 11:46 pm

Drofder2004 wrote:You currently have 8 groups, 2 groups must be removed.
The "Newbie" group is going to be dropped, because we do not stock Deathrun maps.
Another set of groups must be merged.

---

New idea:
"Thermometer" style.
Maps can be ranked out of 10 (consider each '1' as a half-star).
We can use the decimal value of the rating to form a colour.
The thermometer style sounds decent. Maps could be rated fairly. Like right now i can say that mp_dark_v3 hard way is almost impossibble, i would give a 9,5 for it, because it can be only a little bit harder, while not making it impossibble. So if we know this almost maximum value, we can compare the others to this, ranking them with a proper mark.

If this system is goint to be developed, i could help to rate them, cause i have much experience in almost all custom maps. I think it should be a good system, if you grab some guys, who have experience in the most of the advanced custom maps, and let them rate the maps. When the rating is done, the list could go online, so people could see a fair, objective list of all custom maps.

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Re: can someone answer please

Post by fre4kZ » December 29th, 2012, 11:57 pm

KillerSam wrote:
fre4kZ wrote:
Drofder2004 wrote:You currently have 8 groups, 2 groups must be removed.
The "Newbie" group is going to be dropped, because we do not stock Deathrun maps.
Another set of groups must be merged.

---

New idea:
"Thermometer" style.
Maps can be ranked out of 10 (consider each '1' as a half-star).
We can use the decimal value of the rating to form a colour.
The thermometer style sounds decent. Maps could be rated fairly. Like right now i can say that mp_dark_v3 hard way is almost impossibble, i would give a 9,5 for it, because it can be only a little bit harder, while not making it impossibble. So if we know this almost maximum value, we can compare the others to this, ranking them with a proper mark.

If this system is goint to be developed, i could help to rate them, cause i have much experience in almost all custom maps. I think it should be a good system, if you grab some guys, who have experience in the most of the advanced custom maps, and let them rate the maps. When the rating is done, the list could go online, so people could see a fair, objective list of all custom maps.
I'd be happy to open the ratings up to a select group of people first and then increase their value of their votes (maybe so these peoples votes count as 3 "non selected" votes or something, so that at least all maps start off being fairly rated. Might just be better to open it up to everybody and let it balance itself out though.
I think that's a bad idea, cause like intermediate people will rate Advanced maps as expert maps etc etc..... The list won't be proper. I can right now list 15-20 names (including myself), who could give an objective, or close to an objective rating.

Or an another idea : There could be 2 ratings next to eachother, an objective one with the 15-20 or more person, and a subjective rating, which is open for less-experienced people aswell.

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Re: can someone answer please MAP DIFFICULTY

Post by Drofder2004 » December 30th, 2012, 12:40 am

In regards to voting, I would narrow this down to a group of people and not a public vote. The general public will vote on a personal level, however this is not how difficulty can be decided.

When comparing difficulties, the difficulty of a map should be considered against another map, not against the players ability to complete the map.

The way this would need to be done would be "A vs B" comparisons of ALL the maps.
It may sound like a lot (with 140 non-os maps) but with a simple tenchnique it would be quick.

The quickest way is select a map and compare it against the map in the centre of the list. Decide easier or harder.
Take the chosen half and again compare against the centre map. Repeat until not more choices.
Even with 140 maps, the final map will only take around 10 choices.

We then choose the breakpoints between each level increase.

It could easily be done in a few days with only a few hours of committed work.
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Re: can someone answer please MAP DIFFICULTY

Post by Drofder2004 » December 30th, 2012, 1:01 am

KillerSam wrote:The problem with this is that you would need to know the ratings for the maps you are comparing (or at least know the maps).

I don't really see the issue in this group of people getting the option to vote 1-5 and it averaging out to a score.

We could just create something to throw up a comparison between 2 maps and you select either "don't know" or click the hardest map, adjusting the score to both maps by a small amount. With enough comparisons you'd end up with a good rating with the maps in order. Think about the "face mash" thing that got Zuckerberg in shit with Harvard :P

That might be my favoured approach, and would work with public also.
Not knowing a map is not a problem. Leave it out the list until the end, then go play it.

The issue with using an average to determine difficulty is that the 'average' jumper is not actually average, but below average.
If we took 100 jumpers off a server you would get a huge ratio split.
My guess: 20:75:5 (Newbie, Average, Expert).

Newbies will vote 10 on average maps and above.
Averages will vote 8 on average maps, 10 on advanced and above.
Experts will vote 6 on average maps, 8 on advanced and 10 on everything harder.

Average maps receives an estimated average of 8.3
Advanced maps receives an estimate average of 9.9
Expert maps receives 10.

A genuinely near impossible map will receive a 10, but a map that is only moderately hard, to the top 25% of jumpers will be considered nearly as hard.
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Re: can someone answer please MAP DIFFICULTY

Post by Drofder2004 » December 30th, 2012, 1:50 am

Yes this would work, but it requires a lot of input and time with 140 maps to compare.
It would also require a fair amount of coding, although logically not too difficult.

The concept idea in pseudo.

Code: Select all

mapA = getRandomMap();
mapB = getNextRandomMap(mapA);

getNextRandomMap(map)
{
   rating = map.rating;
   arr = {query server for array of maps with rating 'rating ± offset'}

   if (arr = empty)
      // get next hardest map 
      if (no next harder map)
         // get next easier map

   nextmap = arr[randomNum];
   if (nextmap hasBeenVoted)
      // repeat random.
}

vote()
{
   vote.selected.rating + 0.1;
}
It would also be wise to stop people voting on each pair more than once. That's where it gets a little more complicated (especially since our databases are not exactly normalised :P)
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